Lady Amherst's Pheasant
03 Jan 2011 16:29 #592
by Andy Musgrove
Lady Amherst's Pheasant was created by Andy Musgrove
One of the features of BUBO Listing is that we take a fairly "hands-off" approach to vetting people's lists. We prefer to trust people to be honest in saying what they've seen, and this seems to work well in general.
However, I can't help being a little bemused about the way that Lady Amherst's Pheasant is starting to appear on a few lists based on the escaped individual in Norfolk at present. Lady A used to be an established introduced species in Britain, but was found mostly in Bedfordshire and adjacent counties (and these birds are now all but extinct - perhaps entirely extinct?). Although it bred a couple of times in Norfolk in the early 70s, these birds failed to produce an established population. Since then, single birds are seen very occasionally, but at such a frequency as to show they are clearly individual escapes from collections, not part of an established wild population. Adding the current West Rudham bird to a life or year list is clearly not appropriate, unless you are in the habit of ticking any escaped bird you come across. If so, there are often a few Reeves' Pheasants at Buckenham/Strumpshaw you might want to go and look for too - spectacular birds but clearly not an established population.
Unless any Beds birders can say otherwise, it appears that Lady A is no longer available in Britain. Indeed, it is questionable whether those of us who saw them before they died out should retain them on our lists, as they clearly proved not to be a "self-sustaining population" in the long run.
Sorry!
Andy
However, I can't help being a little bemused about the way that Lady Amherst's Pheasant is starting to appear on a few lists based on the escaped individual in Norfolk at present. Lady A used to be an established introduced species in Britain, but was found mostly in Bedfordshire and adjacent counties (and these birds are now all but extinct - perhaps entirely extinct?). Although it bred a couple of times in Norfolk in the early 70s, these birds failed to produce an established population. Since then, single birds are seen very occasionally, but at such a frequency as to show they are clearly individual escapes from collections, not part of an established wild population. Adding the current West Rudham bird to a life or year list is clearly not appropriate, unless you are in the habit of ticking any escaped bird you come across. If so, there are often a few Reeves' Pheasants at Buckenham/Strumpshaw you might want to go and look for too - spectacular birds but clearly not an established population.
Unless any Beds birders can say otherwise, it appears that Lady A is no longer available in Britain. Indeed, it is questionable whether those of us who saw them before they died out should retain them on our lists, as they clearly proved not to be a "self-sustaining population" in the long run.
Sorry!
Andy
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04 Jan 2011 08:45 - 04 Jan 2011 16:43 #593
by Nick Moss
Replied by Nick Moss on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Hi Andy
I did add it briefly to my list (presumably what you refer to in your comments) based on the West Rudham bird I saw yesterday, though I have now removed it after looking into it further and later today establishing that it has escaped from the keepers house. Birdguides did not initially put this bird out as an escape, although they subsequently have done. Its provenance has yesterday become clearer, as many suspected an escape.
I agree that it is barely tickable nowadays, having today read that there are just 3 males left from the introduced but established population of birds. Sadly clearly not self sustaining as there are no females left. I had not appreciated the full situation with these birds (or the lack of them).
Still nice to see though. I wonder how many have this ticked on their list when they have seen similar unringed but escaped birds. As you say, should they be on people's lists anyway as an introduced but evidently non-sustainable population?........its a difficult one, but perhaps this explains people's lack of strict ethics regards subsequent sightings of such birds where the species has been introduced but failed to sustain (I can think of no other comparable uk species), well at least in this case to a point where its origin was unproven.
I did add it briefly to my list (presumably what you refer to in your comments) based on the West Rudham bird I saw yesterday, though I have now removed it after looking into it further and later today establishing that it has escaped from the keepers house. Birdguides did not initially put this bird out as an escape, although they subsequently have done. Its provenance has yesterday become clearer, as many suspected an escape.
I agree that it is barely tickable nowadays, having today read that there are just 3 males left from the introduced but established population of birds. Sadly clearly not self sustaining as there are no females left. I had not appreciated the full situation with these birds (or the lack of them).
Still nice to see though. I wonder how many have this ticked on their list when they have seen similar unringed but escaped birds. As you say, should they be on people's lists anyway as an introduced but evidently non-sustainable population?........its a difficult one, but perhaps this explains people's lack of strict ethics regards subsequent sightings of such birds where the species has been introduced but failed to sustain (I can think of no other comparable uk species), well at least in this case to a point where its origin was unproven.
Last edit: 04 Jan 2011 16:43 by Nick Moss. Reason: addenda
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04 Jan 2011 17:48 #594
by Andy Musgrove
Replied by Andy Musgrove on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Thanks Nick - I wasn't referring specifically to you - I'd just noticed a surprising amount of interest in it that's all. Certainly agree they're stunning to see!
There is no similar UK species yet, but it is conceivable that Golden Pheasant and Ruddy Duck, for different reasons, may present the same issue for new listers in the future.
Andy
There is no similar UK species yet, but it is conceivable that Golden Pheasant and Ruddy Duck, for different reasons, may present the same issue for new listers in the future.
Andy
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05 Jan 2011 19:14 #595
by Steven Lister
Replied by Steven Lister on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Hi Andy
Ruddy Duck is not/will not be in the same category as the population clearly was established and self-sustaining until the government decided to get rid of them.
Cheers
Steve
Ruddy Duck is not/will not be in the same category as the population clearly was established and self-sustaining until the government decided to get rid of them.
Cheers
Steve
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06 Jan 2011 05:56 #596
by Andy Musgrove
Replied by Andy Musgrove on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Hi Steve - yes, good point of course - the reason behind it disappearing (if it does...) is different. It will still (potentially) become category C6 though
"C6 Former naturalized species – species formerly placed in C1 whose naturalized populations are either no longer self-sustaining or are considered extinct, e.g. Lady Amherst's Pheasant Chrysolophus amherstiae."
We'll see...
Andy
"C6 Former naturalized species – species formerly placed in C1 whose naturalized populations are either no longer self-sustaining or are considered extinct, e.g. Lady Amherst's Pheasant Chrysolophus amherstiae."
We'll see...
Andy
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08 Jan 2011 21:18 #599
by John Martin
Replied by John Martin on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
The argument in favour of ticking Lady A's, if you saw them long enough ago, would be that the population actually was sustaining itself (hence BOURC, not known for their impulsiveness, adding it to cat C) until some new factor started what looks like a terminal decline. They used to be in woods with a very thick ground cover of non-native shrubs such as Lonicera nitida, if I remember rightly from the 1980s. Might changes in woodland management have caused their decline? Does anyone out there know? - I'm sure locals will have some ideas about what happened and I'd be interested to hear about it.
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09 Jan 2011 02:02 #600
by Andy Musgrove
Replied by Andy Musgrove on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Good point John. I guess a major candidate for a change in woodland structure would be the increase in deer density - Roe, Muntjac and Fallow in these woods I guess. We're pretty sure that deer densities are strongly implicated in Nightingale declines (amongst others). Ironic I suppose if the demise in one non-native was due to another - Muntjac chomping Lady A habitat.
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24 Jan 2011 21:59 #615
by Paul Downes
Replied by Paul Downes on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
A further problem with the "Lady A" at West Rudham was that it looked likely to be a hybrid. Red patches on the breast indicate some Golden genes making it a "Goldherst". We had a similar bird on Bringsty Common in Herefordshire recently, another wall jumper. 
As an aside how many people are counting the White-tailed Eagle releases on the east coast of Scotland, the tagged Great Bustards or countless dodgy wildfowl?
Last winter we had a small Canada Goose (probably Taverner's) along the Wye initially in Herefordshire and later Breconshire, among 250 Canadas. Not inconceivable that it was a genuine transatlantic flyer, and indeed if one arrived in Wales what would be the most likely species it would associate with - Canada Goose. But it will never have a chance of getting through as a accepted vagrant, wrong place and wrong company. I wonder how the Ross's Geese will fair?
As an aside how many people are counting the White-tailed Eagle releases on the east coast of Scotland, the tagged Great Bustards or countless dodgy wildfowl?
Last winter we had a small Canada Goose (probably Taverner's) along the Wye initially in Herefordshire and later Breconshire, among 250 Canadas. Not inconceivable that it was a genuine transatlantic flyer, and indeed if one arrived in Wales what would be the most likely species it would associate with - Canada Goose. But it will never have a chance of getting through as a accepted vagrant, wrong place and wrong company. I wonder how the Ross's Geese will fair?
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25 Jan 2011 04:58 #616
by Peter Jones
Replied by Peter Jones on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Also, an increase in golf course was presumably a major factor in the Brickhill birds' demise 
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26 Feb 2011 05:23 #628
by Tony Stones
Replied by Tony Stones on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Andy
Presumably the Lady A's which were formerly at Pentre Halkyn Cemetery in North Wales fall into the same category as the Brickhill population. Any idea how many years ago the PH birds were last seen ?
Tony
Presumably the Lady A's which were formerly at Pentre Halkyn Cemetery in North Wales fall into the same category as the Brickhill population. Any idea how many years ago the PH birds were last seen ?
Tony
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02 Mar 2011 05:10 #633
by John Martin
Replied by John Martin on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
I recall seeing a brood of small young and, also a nest with eggs, in the cemetery at Halkyn in summer 1980. I last saw them there (6) in 1988, though even then they might have been recently reintroduced(?). Those birds were always considered distinctly more dodgy than the Beds ones and were perhaps never self sustaining. Not sure when they were last seen but found a bird forum thread from 2005 asking the same question.
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03 Mar 2011 02:09 #634
by Andy Musgrove
Replied by Andy Musgrove on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Have just checked in the BTO library. There is a Clwyd bird report for 1993-95 which lists Lady A for Halkyn for 1994. We then don't have any reports until 2000 (not sure if any exist?), by which time it seems to have disappeared.
Andy
Andy
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03 Mar 2011 03:56 #635
by Ian Foster
Replied by Ian Foster on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
I remember a fair few people used to twitch and tick these birds in the early 90's. I tried on several occations but never connected! It was always thought these birds were released from the large estate that the cemy backed onto, with warnings not to tresspass on their property, although i heard reports of the Pheasants wandering around on the lawns!
The last time i remember one reported was around 1995 (or maybe 96') when a male was reported together with a Golden Pheasant!!! With that news i decided to give up on them and eventually saw one in Charle Wood, Bedfordshire.
From what i know they were never self sustaining and most birders knew this but opted for the "lazy tick"?
Cheers Ian.
The last time i remember one reported was around 1995 (or maybe 96') when a male was reported together with a Golden Pheasant!!! With that news i decided to give up on them and eventually saw one in Charle Wood, Bedfordshire.
From what i know they were never self sustaining and most birders knew this but opted for the "lazy tick"?
Cheers Ian.
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07 Mar 2011 23:23 #636
by Samuel West
Replied by Samuel West on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Understood. Removed.
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08 Mar 2011 06:37 #637
by Andy Musgrove
Replied by Andy Musgrove on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Of interest, the latest British Birds includes the report on non-native breeding birds in the UK in 2006, 2007, 2008. They're clearly hanging on still (or were in 2008) in Bedfordshire:
2006 - six males at three Beds sites
2007 - seven males at three Beds sites but no females seen
2008 - five males at three Beds sites
Cheers
Andy
2006 - six males at three Beds sites
2007 - seven males at three Beds sites but no females seen
2008 - five males at three Beds sites
Cheers
Andy
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09 Aug 2011 07:09 #694
by Nick Page
Replied by Nick Page on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Know this was a few months ago but it reminded me of the situation in north America with birds like crested mynas which are now extirpated. I had quite a few discussions with my birding friends when I lived just south of Vancouver in the US about the fact it was taken off the checklist and how they wanted to keep it on theirs as they had seen them etc etc. I understand their point as they were established for a long time, is it any different than if say, collared dove or little egret were extirpated here? Should it be down to a minimum time? (apart from the whole natural/introduced thing).
I guess, as always, it is up to the individual.
The one I always struggle with is waterfowl, if some are OK, how do you tell the difference between them and the plastics......
I guess, as always, it is up to the individual.
The one I always struggle with is waterfowl, if some are OK, how do you tell the difference between them and the plastics......
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08 Apr 2012 02:52 - 18 Apr 2012 16:51 #820
by Ben Millar
Replied by Ben Millar on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Hi,
Resurrecting an old topic here, but I saw a Lady Amherst last week.
I was in ******, in Bedfordshire, on a photo shoot and wandered into the woods for a pee. This very distinctive bird came out for the bushes and legged it away from me.
I didn't know what is was until I did a bit of research, but it was definitely a Lady Amherst
So the breed appears to be still hanging on in there!
Resurrecting an old topic here, but I saw a Lady Amherst last week.
I was in ******, in Bedfordshire, on a photo shoot and wandered into the woods for a pee. This very distinctive bird came out for the bushes and legged it away from me.
I didn't know what is was until I did a bit of research, but it was definitely a Lady Amherst
So the breed appears to be still hanging on in there!
Last edit: 18 Apr 2012 16:51 by Mike Prince. Reason: Location of sensitive species suppressed
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17 Apr 2012 03:28 - 18 Apr 2012 16:52 #828
by Ben Miller
Replied by Ben Miller on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Ben Millar wrote:
Ah. Right. So this explains why I've received a couple of phone calls in the last week asking me where the Lady A's were...
I've never been aware of any other Ben Miller/Millars on the UK birding scene before, so to clarify any potential confusion, this Ben Miller has no idea how to see Lady A's in the UK at the moment.
In fact, I've not seen one in Britain since the 20th March 1999 in Lowe's Wood on the Bucks/Bed border, with a number of others including LGRE and Rich Bonser. The last Bucks record I know of was a calling male I heard with Simon Nichols et al on the 1st of May 2005 at Back Wood near Bow Brickhill.
So, sorry, can't help anyone!
Cheers,
Ben Miller,
Bucks Tring, UK
@Bob_Tag
Hi,
Resurrecting an old topic here, but I saw a Lady Amherst last week.
I was in ******, in Bedfordshire, on a photo shoot and wandered into the woods for a pee. This very distinctive bird came out for the bushes and legged it away from me.
I didn't know what is was until I did a bit of research, but it was definitely a Lady Amherst
So the breed appears to be still hanging on in there!
Ah. Right. So this explains why I've received a couple of phone calls in the last week asking me where the Lady A's were...
I've never been aware of any other Ben Miller/Millars on the UK birding scene before, so to clarify any potential confusion, this Ben Miller has no idea how to see Lady A's in the UK at the moment.
In fact, I've not seen one in Britain since the 20th March 1999 in Lowe's Wood on the Bucks/Bed border, with a number of others including LGRE and Rich Bonser. The last Bucks record I know of was a calling male I heard with Simon Nichols et al on the 1st of May 2005 at Back Wood near Bow Brickhill.
So, sorry, can't help anyone!
Cheers,
Ben Miller,
Bucks Tring, UK
@Bob_Tag
Last edit: 18 Apr 2012 16:52 by Mike Prince. Reason: Location of sensitive species suppressed
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20 Apr 2012 06:41 #830
by Ben Millar
Replied by Ben Millar on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Ben Miller wrote:
Hi, wasn't aware the location of the birds should be kept under wraps
They are certainly safe, it's not a place the public can go.
I'm not a member of the birding scene, I just joined as I saw the pheasant and this seemed the place to report it.
Funny fact for my namesake Ben Miller - I grew up in Tring!!
Ben Millar wrote:
Hi,
Resurrecting an old topic here, but I saw a Lady Amherst last week.
I was in ******, in Bedfordshire, on a photo shoot and wandered into the woods for a pee. This very distinctive bird came out for the bushes and legged it away from me.
I didn't know what is was until I did a bit of research, but it was definitely a Lady Amherst
So the breed appears to be still hanging on in there!
Ah. Right. So this explains why I've received a couple of phone calls in the last week asking me where the Lady A's were...
I've never been aware of any other Ben Miller/Millars on the UK birding scene before, so to clarify any potential confusion, this Ben Miller has no idea how to see Lady A's in the UK at the moment.
In fact, I've not seen one in Britain since the 20th March 1999 in Lowe's Wood on the Bucks/Bed border, with a number of others including LGRE and Rich Bonser. The last Bucks record I know of was a calling male I heard with Simon Nichols et al on the 1st of May 2005 at Back Wood near Bow Brickhill.
So, sorry, can't help anyone!
Cheers,
Ben Miller,
Bucks Tring, UK
@Bob_Tag
Hi, wasn't aware the location of the birds should be kept under wraps
They are certainly safe, it's not a place the public can go.I'm not a member of the birding scene, I just joined as I saw the pheasant and this seemed the place to report it.
Funny fact for my namesake Ben Miller - I grew up in Tring!!
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21 Apr 2012 04:04 #832
by Ben Miller
Replied by Ben Miller on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Ben Millar wrote:
What a coincidence.
I don't recall any namesakes! When were you in Tring? Which school did you go to?
Cheers,
Ben
Funny fact for my namesake Ben Miller - I grew up in Tring!!
What a coincidence.
I don't recall any namesakes! When were you in Tring? Which school did you go to?
Cheers,
Ben
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21 Apr 2012 19:47 #833
by Ben Millar
Replied by Ben Millar on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Ben Miller wrote:
I was in Tring from birth in 1976 up until I left Tring school at 18.
My folks still live there, and we often go back.
Ben Millar wrote:
Funny fact for my namesake Ben Miller - I grew up in Tring!!
What a coincidence.
I don't recall any namesakes! When were you in Tring? Which school did you go to?
Cheers,
Ben
I was in Tring from birth in 1976 up until I left Tring school at 18.
My folks still live there, and we often go back.
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19 Apr 2013 12:41 #931
by John Jennings
Replied by John Jennings on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
What is the current situation regarding listing these birds now as I see that LGRE has added one to his British year list this year.
John
John
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17 May 2013 08:20 #1058
by Lee Evans
Replied by Lee Evans on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Not sure of your interest John but as 4 males currently survive from at least 1999 and are clearly part of the once well-established Bedfordshire population, I don't understand the nature of your question. The birds remain an integral part of the UK list until the very last individual expires. I still run trips to see these last surviving individuals but costs are high and it is extremely difficult keeping birds at feeding stations with so many Common Pheasants, Muntjacs, Magpies and other creatures in competition. Also, due to continued trespassing at the main site and the breaking down of fences, security has been reinforced and General Motors are taking firm action against those birders we know are gaining access (the area is on CCTV and I can identify most individuals breaching the security fence; typically 2 individuals involved with Bird Dissemination are involved and others from Cheshire/Staffordshire). A number of visiting twitchers have been caught red-handed scaling the fence in the early hours and this really has not gone down very well and because of this, the future of at least two birds is now of very grave concern as GM take a very dim view of these actions and breaches of security, particularly as a number of motor manufacturer's utilise the site to test prototype vehicles.
Outside of Bedfordshire, a further 5-12 males of captive origin survive in the wild but were NOT part of the original introduction and stock. These are therefore not considered countable.
Outside of Bedfordshire, a further 5-12 males of captive origin survive in the wild but were NOT part of the original introduction and stock. These are therefore not considered countable.
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17 May 2013 13:47 #1059
by John Jennings
Replied by John Jennings on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Hi Lee
You know my interest as you can see that I am currently second on the list. This is the first time I have joined the list and I have done it because there appear to be rules regarding what you can or cannot list (i.e BOU rules).
Now using those rules this is what BOU says about Lady A's qualification.
C6 - Former naturalized species – species formerly placed in C1 whose naturalized populations are either no longer self-sustaining or are considered extinct, e.g. Lady Amherst's Pheasant Chrysolophus amherstiae.
Now using that statement how can you list Lady A as part of the BOU rules.
Whilst we are on the subject. How can you also count the Radipole Hooded Merganser which has been rejected by BOU.
You count what you like with your UK400 club but surely within the restraints of the BOU rules you should comply with them and take off both Lady A & Hooded Merganser from your list.
You may think I have a vested interest in you taking off two species so that I can get closer on the list but you have no fear of me catching you up as I work in the week so will always miss loads of species. My only target this year (which will be my last twitching year) is to reach 300 but I will do it totally under the BOU rules, which I hope you will do also.
John
You know my interest as you can see that I am currently second on the list. This is the first time I have joined the list and I have done it because there appear to be rules regarding what you can or cannot list (i.e BOU rules).
Now using those rules this is what BOU says about Lady A's qualification.
C6 - Former naturalized species – species formerly placed in C1 whose naturalized populations are either no longer self-sustaining or are considered extinct, e.g. Lady Amherst's Pheasant Chrysolophus amherstiae.
Now using that statement how can you list Lady A as part of the BOU rules.
Whilst we are on the subject. How can you also count the Radipole Hooded Merganser which has been rejected by BOU.
You count what you like with your UK400 club but surely within the restraints of the BOU rules you should comply with them and take off both Lady A & Hooded Merganser from your list.
You may think I have a vested interest in you taking off two species so that I can get closer on the list but you have no fear of me catching you up as I work in the week so will always miss loads of species. My only target this year (which will be my last twitching year) is to reach 300 but I will do it totally under the BOU rules, which I hope you will do also.
John
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19 May 2013 05:26 #1060
by Lee Evans
Replied by Lee Evans on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
I have had this conversation with some members of the BOURC and they seem to understand (like me) that Lady A in Bedfordshire is COUNTABLE until the last remaining individual of the post 1966 stock dies out. This seems logical and sensible but I do agree that Lady A is finished, after all I haven't seen a female since Year 2000.
There are countless lists on BUBO BOU admitting the Radipole Hooded Merganser to their lists and hence why I added it. However, as you will see from my UK400 Club list also on BUBO, that I don't count it and it is not (currently) countable. However, I personally feel that this bird is a natural vagrant rather than an escapee and NOBODY knows its merits other than itself. It turned up the very morning after a bird in exactly the same plumage was last seen on The Azores - relocating bird perhaps. Portland has proven its ability to receive far-flung vagrants from elsewhere in Europe next day (eg last year's Stejgener's Stonechat)
And you may be well out with your assumptions. Spending nearly 6 months of the year tour leading and guiding around the globe, YOU are in a better position than me to chase UK rares, even if you can only travel at weekends - nobody has more commitments or is busier than me. Remember I have a wife and 4 cats to fulfil, numerous businesses to run and countless birders to answer and help
There are countless lists on BUBO BOU admitting the Radipole Hooded Merganser to their lists and hence why I added it. However, as you will see from my UK400 Club list also on BUBO, that I don't count it and it is not (currently) countable. However, I personally feel that this bird is a natural vagrant rather than an escapee and NOBODY knows its merits other than itself. It turned up the very morning after a bird in exactly the same plumage was last seen on The Azores - relocating bird perhaps. Portland has proven its ability to receive far-flung vagrants from elsewhere in Europe next day (eg last year's Stejgener's Stonechat)
And you may be well out with your assumptions. Spending nearly 6 months of the year tour leading and guiding around the globe, YOU are in a better position than me to chase UK rares, even if you can only travel at weekends - nobody has more commitments or is busier than me. Remember I have a wife and 4 cats to fulfil, numerous businesses to run and countless birders to answer and help
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20 May 2013 07:53 #1061
by John Jennings
Replied by John Jennings on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Like you Lee I also feel that the Radipole bird is genuine but as of yet BOU haven't accepted it and until they do I won't count it. Likewise the L.A as a catergory 6 shouldn't be tickable either.
Whether you think it is right or wrong has no bearing on this isue as we still should abide by the rules as they stand and then complain with a good case why the other two species should be asccepted onto the lists.
If after that they change their stance on these birds then count them but if not you shouldn't consider them on the BOU list.
John
Whether you think it is right or wrong has no bearing on this isue as we still should abide by the rules as they stand and then complain with a good case why the other two species should be asccepted onto the lists.
If after that they change their stance on these birds then count them but if not you shouldn't consider them on the BOU list.
John
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26 May 2013 05:16 #1063
by James Emerson
Replied by James Emerson on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
The official British list is made up of both Category A, B and Category C species. As Lady Amherst's Pheasant is in Category C (the number is merely a sub-division), then any left in the wild from their naturalised population are still part of the British list and therefore countable. Lee even says that he has spoken to BOURC members who confirm that this is the case.
To be clear I haven't seen Lady A's in Britain, nor am I likely to now, so I don't have a vested interest in their tickability, I just don't understand why you don't think that you can count a C6 species.
Regards,
James
To be clear I haven't seen Lady A's in Britain, nor am I likely to now, so I don't have a vested interest in their tickability, I just don't understand why you don't think that you can count a C6 species.
Regards,
James
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28 May 2013 17:39 #1066
by John Jennings
Replied by John Jennings on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Hi James
Thanks for the clarification regarding Lady A's. I was always under the impression (wrongly by the look of it) that once a species was declared non sustainable that it was no longer tickable. It looks like I now stand corrected.
Regarding the Hooded Merganser at Radipole. How is that bird tickable when it has not been accepted by the BOU.
John
Thanks for the clarification regarding Lady A's. I was always under the impression (wrongly by the look of it) that once a species was declared non sustainable that it was no longer tickable. It looks like I now stand corrected.
Regarding the Hooded Merganser at Radipole. How is that bird tickable when it has not been accepted by the BOU.
John
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29 May 2013 19:36 #1068
by James Emerson
Replied by James Emerson on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Hi John.
I can understand why that would seem to be the case. You could quite reasonably claim that as Lady A's Pheasants are now going extinct, that the population was never self-sustaining. However, as the decline was at least partly down to human interference, I think the general line is that the population was self-sustainable for a reasonable period, which justifies their position on Category C. With regards to ticking them, the key part on the BOU website is that the birds that are left are derived from a self-sustaining population, so they are OK. The only other option would be for BOURC to decide that the population was never self-sustaining, at which point it would have to be removed from Category C and moved to Category E. To put it another way, if a 15th generation born-in-the-wild pheasant was OK to tick twenty years ago, why wouldn't a 25th generation born-in-the-wild pheasant be tickable now? (obviously I have made up the number of generations, but I think it illustrates the point).
I agree with you that if you are keeping a strict BOU list (i.e. using BOU taxonomy and decisions) then you shouldn't count the Radipole Merganser as it was rejected by BBRC.
Many people keep a not-so-strict BOU list, using the taxonomy but counting birds that they feel were identified correctly/were wild, but were rejected. The problem here is that if some people put on a strict list and some don't then it makes comparison less valid.
All the best,
James
John Jennings wrote:
I can understand why that would seem to be the case. You could quite reasonably claim that as Lady A's Pheasants are now going extinct, that the population was never self-sustaining. However, as the decline was at least partly down to human interference, I think the general line is that the population was self-sustainable for a reasonable period, which justifies their position on Category C. With regards to ticking them, the key part on the BOU website is that the birds that are left are derived from a self-sustaining population, so they are OK. The only other option would be for BOURC to decide that the population was never self-sustaining, at which point it would have to be removed from Category C and moved to Category E. To put it another way, if a 15th generation born-in-the-wild pheasant was OK to tick twenty years ago, why wouldn't a 25th generation born-in-the-wild pheasant be tickable now? (obviously I have made up the number of generations, but I think it illustrates the point).
I agree with you that if you are keeping a strict BOU list (i.e. using BOU taxonomy and decisions) then you shouldn't count the Radipole Merganser as it was rejected by BBRC.
Many people keep a not-so-strict BOU list, using the taxonomy but counting birds that they feel were identified correctly/were wild, but were rejected. The problem here is that if some people put on a strict list and some don't then it makes comparison less valid.
All the best,
James
John Jennings wrote:
Hi James
Thanks for the clarification regarding Lady A's. I was always under the impression (wrongly by the look of it) that once a species was declared non sustainable that it was no longer tickable. It looks like I now stand corrected.
Regarding the Hooded Merganser at Radipole. How is that bird tickable when it has not been accepted by the BOU.
John
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29 May 2013 21:44 #1069
by John Jennings
Replied by John Jennings on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Thanks James
I can see why there is confusion regarding the Lady A's but not the Merganser.
I spoke to Lee about the Merganser at the Dusky Thrush site but he just seemed to pass it over.
As far as I am concerned this year list is using BOU rules and while I now accept the lady A argument I can't accept the Merganser one and this bird (although like quite a few other birders I suspect that this is an acceptable one) should not be ticked by anyone, including those birders whose only excuse is, "well Lee has ticked it so I will".
It doesn't say much for their own minds when they can't make a judgement based on the rules we appear to be working to.
I have seen the Merganser but I am not ticking it, not on my life list or my year list, until it has been accepted by the BOU (which I feel will never happen).
Regards
John
I can see why there is confusion regarding the Lady A's but not the Merganser.
I spoke to Lee about the Merganser at the Dusky Thrush site but he just seemed to pass it over.
As far as I am concerned this year list is using BOU rules and while I now accept the lady A argument I can't accept the Merganser one and this bird (although like quite a few other birders I suspect that this is an acceptable one) should not be ticked by anyone, including those birders whose only excuse is, "well Lee has ticked it so I will".
It doesn't say much for their own minds when they can't make a judgement based on the rules we appear to be working to.
I have seen the Merganser but I am not ticking it, not on my life list or my year list, until it has been accepted by the BOU (which I feel will never happen).
Regards
John
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27 Nov 2014 03:04 #1210
by Nick Moss
Replied by Nick Moss on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
I can understand the ambiguity - BBRC themselves said that they had no idea about the provenance of the Radipole Hoody - if I recall despite placing it in Cat E they actually added "make your own mind up".
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27 Nov 2014 10:57 #1211
by Jim Clarke
Replied by Jim Clarke on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
In terms of the Radipole Hooded Merganser's origin does it not seem odd that a bird that would have had to have had a strong enough migratory urge to set it on a journey over the Atlantic has subsequently shown no significant movements at all? Can you think of any comparable example of presumed wild Nearctic wildfowl in Britain behaving in this way? The only examples that come to mind are Black Duck that have hybridized with local Mallard. American Wigeon, Green-winged Teal, Ring-necked Duck, Lesser Scaup all show seasonal movements; lots of returning winterers but any resident birds at all?
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28 Nov 2014 04:27 #1212
by Nick Moss
Replied by Nick Moss on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
I do partly agree with this, but if it was the case that it was from a captive generation of Hoody that had lost its migratory instinct, then what was it doing exhausted and in a storm drain near Chesil Beach - surely it had just arrived from somewhere other than a water fowl park. But who knows?
There are many year round Tufties at Radipole as well. Again, I have no answer but thi scan happen in birds. Such as with the Titchwell BW Stilt.
There are many year round Tufties at Radipole as well. Again, I have no answer but thi scan happen in birds. Such as with the Titchwell BW Stilt.
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28 Nov 2014 04:56 - 28 Nov 2014 08:11 #1213
by Jim Clarke
Replied by Jim Clarke on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
A short trip from a nearby wildfowl collections by a bird unused to the outdoors seems more likely than a midsummer trans-Atlantic crossing. In this regard it might be worth considering how difficult it might have found changing from 12 months of the kind of diet mentioned here;
www.freewebs.com/waterfowlgarden/hoodedmerganser.htm
"They should be fed a sea duck diet with high protein pellets a must, they will also take live foods such as meal worms and crickets with relish."
to a natural diet of fish, crayfish, frogs, mud crabs, clams, aquatic insects, and insect larvae?
Time of arrival; not strongly indicative of wild origin. Circumstances of discovery; debatable. Subsequent behavior; not strongly indicative of wild origin. Of course no one will ever know with absolute certainty, but on available evidence, and for such a nationally rare (as a presumed wild) bird, that is common in captivity (cheaper then Goldeneye, about half the price of Smew) then it doesn't seem to have much going for it.
www.freewebs.com/waterfowlgarden/hoodedmerganser.htm
"They should be fed a sea duck diet with high protein pellets a must, they will also take live foods such as meal worms and crickets with relish."
to a natural diet of fish, crayfish, frogs, mud crabs, clams, aquatic insects, and insect larvae?
Time of arrival; not strongly indicative of wild origin. Circumstances of discovery; debatable. Subsequent behavior; not strongly indicative of wild origin. Of course no one will ever know with absolute certainty, but on available evidence, and for such a nationally rare (as a presumed wild) bird, that is common in captivity (cheaper then Goldeneye, about half the price of Smew) then it doesn't seem to have much going for it.
Last edit: 28 Nov 2014 08:11 by Jim Clarke. Reason: Information added
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01 Mar 2015 14:48 #1242
by Nick Moss
Replied by Nick Moss on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Changing tact slightly, what actually happens when the last Lady A dies?
Will it always remain part of the British List as an extinct species on C6, or does it get removed from the British list (such as here on BUBO).
A lot of people will lose a tick if the latter is the case.
May seem a silly question, but when I ask people many are unsure. Some say it will always remain even after extinction.
Will it always remain part of the British List as an extinct species on C6, or does it get removed from the British list (such as here on BUBO).
A lot of people will lose a tick if the latter is the case.
May seem a silly question, but when I ask people many are unsure. Some say it will always remain even after extinction.
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01 Mar 2015 19:32 #1243
by James Emerson
Replied by James Emerson on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Hi Nick.
Given that C6 caters for birds that category C species that are no longer self-sustaining or considered extinct then Lady Amherst's Pheasant will remain in C6 (and therefore on the British list) once the last one dies out (as will Golden Pheasant and Ruddy Duck).
The only scenario where it would be removed would be if the BOURC were to review the complete history of the species in Britain and deem that it was never self-sustaining. I have never heard any official suggestion that this has been or would be considered. The wording of C6 suggests that it is possible for a species to be classed as self-sustaining at one point and then decline (e.g. as a results of external factors like development), rather than having to be self-sustaining indefinitely.
Regards,
James
Given that C6 caters for birds that category C species that are no longer self-sustaining or considered extinct then Lady Amherst's Pheasant will remain in C6 (and therefore on the British list) once the last one dies out (as will Golden Pheasant and Ruddy Duck).
The only scenario where it would be removed would be if the BOURC were to review the complete history of the species in Britain and deem that it was never self-sustaining. I have never heard any official suggestion that this has been or would be considered. The wording of C6 suggests that it is possible for a species to be classed as self-sustaining at one point and then decline (e.g. as a results of external factors like development), rather than having to be self-sustaining indefinitely.
Regards,
James
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01 Mar 2015 19:39 - 01 Mar 2015 21:07 #1244
by Nick Moss
Replied by Nick Moss on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Thanks for that James, i thought that too, but Great Auk (being the obvious example) is'nt on the list.
Last edit: 01 Mar 2015 21:07 by Nick Moss.
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01 Mar 2015 21:52 #1245
by James Emerson
Replied by James Emerson on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Great Auk is on Category B of the British list, which is the category for species recorded between 1800 and 1949 but not since then. Category A is only for species that have been seen from 1st Jan 1950. Category B is part of the British list, but that is only of interest really if you have been birding/twitching for more than 65 years!
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01 Mar 2015 22:52 #1246
by Nick Moss
Replied by Nick Moss on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
I know, but it is conceivable that someone has seen one, but can't add it on BUBO as (unless I'm mistaken) its not on the list. I thought the British list included Cat A, B and C.
Not trying to be pedantic here James, I appreciate your response. Just trying to understand why Lady A will still be on the list once the last bird dies.
Not trying to be pedantic here James, I appreciate your response. Just trying to understand why Lady A will still be on the list once the last bird dies.
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01 Mar 2015 23:14 - 01 Mar 2015 23:19 #1247
by Jim Clarke
Replied by Jim Clarke on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
More surreal than pedantic; if anyone saw the 1840 Great Auk please raise your hand.
Last edit: 01 Mar 2015 23:19 by Jim Clarke.
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01 Mar 2015 23:27 #1248
by Nick Moss
Ok I had'nt realised it was that long ago.
But the point remains, if that extinct species is not on the British list, why would Lady Amhersts Pheasant remain when it dies out?
Replied by Nick Moss on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Ok I had'nt realised it was that long ago.
But the point remains, if that extinct species is not on the British list, why would Lady Amhersts Pheasant remain when it dies out?
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01 Mar 2015 23:34 - 01 Mar 2015 23:47 #1249
by Jim Clarke
Replied by Jim Clarke on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Last edit: 01 Mar 2015 23:47 by Jim Clarke.
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01 Mar 2015 23:43 - 02 Mar 2015 00:03 #1250
by Jim Clarke
Replied by Jim Clarke on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
The point doesn't remain. Great Auk is on Category B of the BOU British List. You can tick a Category B no problem if you are old enough to have seen it in Britain 50+ years ago, but why would you put a species up on a listers site like Bubo that no one could conceivably have seen?
Cat B is for species that otherwise would be on Cat A (i.e. wild birds). No time limit is mentioned for Cat 6. If BOU want to mess around with the categories further (say to subdivide B to include once self-sustaining feral birds) they could, and you are best to ask BOU directly about it, but I can't see it being a particularly pressing issue for them. If you took Lady A from the start of its C6 status that's 2055, from the last bird of the formerly feral population that's going to be 2064 or shortly there after.
Cat B is for species that otherwise would be on Cat A (i.e. wild birds). No time limit is mentioned for Cat 6. If BOU want to mess around with the categories further (say to subdivide B to include once self-sustaining feral birds) they could, and you are best to ask BOU directly about it, but I can't see it being a particularly pressing issue for them. If you took Lady A from the start of its C6 status that's 2055, from the last bird of the formerly feral population that's going to be 2064 or shortly there after.
Last edit: 02 Mar 2015 00:03 by Jim Clarke. Reason: 'that' to 'that's'
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02 Mar 2015 00:45 #1251
by Nick Moss
Replied by Nick Moss on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Cheers Jim. If the only reason Great Auk is omitted on BUBO is simply because no one can have seen it, then that is understandable.
I just wondered whether birds that had died out were not retained on the list, hope that makes sense.
I just wondered whether birds that had died out were not retained on the list, hope that makes sense.
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02 Mar 2015 07:18 #1253
by Jim Clarke
Replied by Jim Clarke on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Actually a correction to the last sentence of my last post. James is correct; BOU have stuck with a cutoff date (31 December 1949 www.bou.org.uk/british-list/species-categories/) for Cat B, rather then the rolling 50 year one I implied (and I'm not entirely sure where I got that from). So in that regard any change in Lady A status would also have to involve a change in the Cat B cutoff date. Otherwise it could potentially stay on C6 for ever.
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14 Mar 2015 03:21 #1258
by Nick Moss
Replied by Nick Moss on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
I see that according to Lee Evans year list 2015, he reports 5 males still in existence from 12 March this year, 3 at a his former feeding station, and 2 more males he believes to be forced from the land of the nearby Centre Parcs.
I thought we were down to 1 or 2 birds.
Does anyone believe that females are infact still alive and breeding is still occurring?
Interesting. And not secret either.
Thoughts?
I thought we were down to 1 or 2 birds.
Does anyone believe that females are infact still alive and breeding is still occurring?
Interesting. And not secret either.
Thoughts?
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14 Mar 2015 04:08 #1259
by Jim Clarke
Replied by Jim Clarke on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Thought; it's Lee's report so contact him?
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14 Mar 2015 14:31 #1260
by Nick Moss
Replied by Nick Moss on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
I personally have no problem with Lee but as I am not close to him I don't think I would get any reply. I'm sure others will query this anyway and his thoughts will emerge.
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14 Mar 2015 22:44 - 14 Mar 2015 23:03 #1261
by Jim Clarke
Replied by Jim Clarke on topic Re:Lady Amherst's Pheasant
I'm not sure anyone else will be able to (or wish to) expand any further then he already has done.
Last edit: 14 Mar 2015 23:03 by Jim Clarke.
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