Lady Amherst's Pheasant
Ben Millar wrote:
Funny fact for my namesake Ben Miller - I grew up in Tring!!
What a coincidence.
I don't recall any namesakes! When were you in Tring? Which school did you go to?
Cheers,
Ben
I was in Tring from birth in 1976 up until I left Tring school at 18.
My folks still live there, and we often go back.
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John
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Outside of Bedfordshire, a further 5-12 males of captive origin survive in the wild but were NOT part of the original introduction and stock. These are therefore not considered countable.
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You know my interest as you can see that I am currently second on the list. This is the first time I have joined the list and I have done it because there appear to be rules regarding what you can or cannot list (i.e BOU rules).
Now using those rules this is what BOU says about Lady A's qualification.
C6 - Former naturalized species – species formerly placed in C1 whose naturalized populations are either no longer self-sustaining or are considered extinct, e.g. Lady Amherst's Pheasant Chrysolophus amherstiae.
Now using that statement how can you list Lady A as part of the BOU rules.
Whilst we are on the subject. How can you also count the Radipole Hooded Merganser which has been rejected by BOU.
You count what you like with your UK400 club but surely within the restraints of the BOU rules you should comply with them and take off both Lady A & Hooded Merganser from your list.
You may think I have a vested interest in you taking off two species so that I can get closer on the list but you have no fear of me catching you up as I work in the week so will always miss loads of species. My only target this year (which will be my last twitching year) is to reach 300 but I will do it totally under the BOU rules, which I hope you will do also.
John
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There are countless lists on BUBO BOU admitting the Radipole Hooded Merganser to their lists and hence why I added it. However, as you will see from my UK400 Club list also on BUBO, that I don't count it and it is not (currently) countable. However, I personally feel that this bird is a natural vagrant rather than an escapee and NOBODY knows its merits other than itself. It turned up the very morning after a bird in exactly the same plumage was last seen on The Azores - relocating bird perhaps. Portland has proven its ability to receive far-flung vagrants from elsewhere in Europe next day (eg last year's Stejgener's Stonechat)
And you may be well out with your assumptions. Spending nearly 6 months of the year tour leading and guiding around the globe, YOU are in a better position than me to chase UK rares, even if you can only travel at weekends - nobody has more commitments or is busier than me. Remember I have a wife and 4 cats to fulfil, numerous businesses to run and countless birders to answer and help
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Whether you think it is right or wrong has no bearing on this isue as we still should abide by the rules as they stand and then complain with a good case why the other two species should be asccepted onto the lists.
If after that they change their stance on these birds then count them but if not you shouldn't consider them on the BOU list.
John
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To be clear I haven't seen Lady A's in Britain, nor am I likely to now, so I don't have a vested interest in their tickability, I just don't understand why you don't think that you can count a C6 species.
Regards,
James
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Thanks for the clarification regarding Lady A's. I was always under the impression (wrongly by the look of it) that once a species was declared non sustainable that it was no longer tickable. It looks like I now stand corrected.
Regarding the Hooded Merganser at Radipole. How is that bird tickable when it has not been accepted by the BOU.
John
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I can understand why that would seem to be the case. You could quite reasonably claim that as Lady A's Pheasants are now going extinct, that the population was never self-sustaining. However, as the decline was at least partly down to human interference, I think the general line is that the population was self-sustainable for a reasonable period, which justifies their position on Category C. With regards to ticking them, the key part on the BOU website is that the birds that are left are derived from a self-sustaining population, so they are OK. The only other option would be for BOURC to decide that the population was never self-sustaining, at which point it would have to be removed from Category C and moved to Category E. To put it another way, if a 15th generation born-in-the-wild pheasant was OK to tick twenty years ago, why wouldn't a 25th generation born-in-the-wild pheasant be tickable now? (obviously I have made up the number of generations, but I think it illustrates the point).
I agree with you that if you are keeping a strict BOU list (i.e. using BOU taxonomy and decisions) then you shouldn't count the Radipole Merganser as it was rejected by BBRC.
Many people keep a not-so-strict BOU list, using the taxonomy but counting birds that they feel were identified correctly/were wild, but were rejected. The problem here is that if some people put on a strict list and some don't then it makes comparison less valid.
All the best,
James
John Jennings wrote:
Hi James
Thanks for the clarification regarding Lady A's. I was always under the impression (wrongly by the look of it) that once a species was declared non sustainable that it was no longer tickable. It looks like I now stand corrected.
Regarding the Hooded Merganser at Radipole. How is that bird tickable when it has not been accepted by the BOU.
John
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I can see why there is confusion regarding the Lady A's but not the Merganser.
I spoke to Lee about the Merganser at the Dusky Thrush site but he just seemed to pass it over.
As far as I am concerned this year list is using BOU rules and while I now accept the lady A argument I can't accept the Merganser one and this bird (although like quite a few other birders I suspect that this is an acceptable one) should not be ticked by anyone, including those birders whose only excuse is, "well Lee has ticked it so I will".
It doesn't say much for their own minds when they can't make a judgement based on the rules we appear to be working to.
I have seen the Merganser but I am not ticking it, not on my life list or my year list, until it has been accepted by the BOU (which I feel will never happen).
Regards
John
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There are many year round Tufties at Radipole as well. Again, I have no answer but thi scan happen in birds. Such as with the Titchwell BW Stilt.
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www.freewebs.com/waterfowlgarden/hoodedmerganser.htm
"They should be fed a sea duck diet with high protein pellets a must, they will also take live foods such as meal worms and crickets with relish."
to a natural diet of fish, crayfish, frogs, mud crabs, clams, aquatic insects, and insect larvae?
Time of arrival; not strongly indicative of wild origin. Circumstances of discovery; debatable. Subsequent behavior; not strongly indicative of wild origin. Of course no one will ever know with absolute certainty, but on available evidence, and for such a nationally rare (as a presumed wild) bird, that is common in captivity (cheaper then Goldeneye, about half the price of Smew) then it doesn't seem to have much going for it.
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Will it always remain part of the British List as an extinct species on C6, or does it get removed from the British list (such as here on BUBO).
A lot of people will lose a tick if the latter is the case.
May seem a silly question, but when I ask people many are unsure. Some say it will always remain even after extinction.
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Given that C6 caters for birds that category C species that are no longer self-sustaining or considered extinct then Lady Amherst's Pheasant will remain in C6 (and therefore on the British list) once the last one dies out (as will Golden Pheasant and Ruddy Duck).
The only scenario where it would be removed would be if the BOURC were to review the complete history of the species in Britain and deem that it was never self-sustaining. I have never heard any official suggestion that this has been or would be considered. The wording of C6 suggests that it is possible for a species to be classed as self-sustaining at one point and then decline (e.g. as a results of external factors like development), rather than having to be self-sustaining indefinitely.
Regards,
James
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Not trying to be pedantic here James, I appreciate your response. Just trying to understand why Lady A will still be on the list once the last bird dies.
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