normal IOC British list

1 year 8 months ago #1333 by Nick Moss
IOC British list was created by Nick Moss
HI,

Obvious question, will we be able to transfer our British list to the new adapted version very soon?
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1 year 8 months ago #1334 by Andy Musgrove
Replied by Andy Musgrove on topic IOC British list
Hi Nick

BOURC have announced that the changes of the taxonomic treatment of the British list to follow IOC won't take effect until 1st Jan 2018. So we'll update the list at that point.

Cheers
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1 year 8 months ago - 1 year 7 months ago #1335 by Nick Moss
Replied by Nick Moss on topic IOC British list
Thanks Andy

Sorry hadn't appreciated that.

Sorry to hassle.

Kind regards, Nick
Last edit: 1 year 7 months ago by Nick Moss. Reason: Update
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1 year 7 months ago - 1 year 7 months ago #1339 by Elizabeth Watts
Replied by Elizabeth Watts on topic IOC British list
Could you confirm what effect the changes you will be making to your British List on 1/1/18 will have on previous years' lists on your site. For example, I currently have Hudsonian whimbrel on my 2015 year list, as it was countable under the taxonomy in use in 2015. Will it self destruct from this list on 1/1/18 or will it remain?
Last edit: 1 year 7 months ago by Elizabeth Watts.
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1 year 7 months ago #1340 by Andy Musgrove
Replied by Andy Musgrove on topic IOC British list
I'm afraid it will 'destruct'! Unless IOC changes its mind by next January of course.

So far as I can see, if nothing changes in next 12 months, the changes for British listers are as follows:

Split of Bean Goose into Tundra/Taiga
Loss of Fea's Petrel (following split with Desertas Petrel, not identifiable in the field yet???)
Lump of Hudsonian Whimbrel
Split of Thayer's Gull
Split of Least Tern
Split of Turkestan/Daurian (i.e. Isabelline) Shrike
Split of Two-barred Greenish Warbler
Split of Stejneger's Stonechat
Split of Eastern Yellow Wagtail
Lump of Lesser and Common/Mealy Redpoll

So a net gain of 4. If anyone else spots anything I've missed, please let me know.
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1 year 7 months ago #1341 by Elizabeth Watts
Replied by Elizabeth Watts on topic IOC British list
This seems a little odd to me. After the offside rule was introduced in football in 1891, no-one went back and looked at the 1890 FA cup matches and changed the results because the goals would be offside under the new rules. No one suggests stripping Torville and Dean of their 1984 ice dance gold because the dance included lifts ovewr the head, which have since been forbidden. In every other sport, results are judged by the rules in force at the time of the competition; why make an exception for twitching? Surely for Year Listing, the birds countable should be according to the list in force at the time.

The American position accords with mine; the ABA rules are quite clear on the subject ( listing.aba.org/big-year-rules/ ). No American birders would have dreamed of dragging out previous Big Year lists when the Times Square Ball fell at midnight on 1/1/17 and starting to shove Hawaiian birds on it...
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1 year 7 months ago #1342 by Jeremy Hurley
Replied by Jeremy Hurley on topic IOC British list
A very valid point and elegantly put Elizabeth.

Jeremy Hurley.
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1 year 7 months ago #1343 by Andy Musgrove
Replied by Andy Musgrove on topic IOC British list
Sorry if it'll cause you problems. But that's the way it works - all lists refer to an underlying master list in the database. If that changes, they all have to as a result. Just the way it works.

Cheers
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1 year 7 months ago #1344 by Nick Moss
Replied by Nick Moss on topic IOC British list
Hi Andy,

Perhaps the BOU list could be kept as an option within your lists, but closed to amendments/additions from the point it is replaced?

Would that appease people?

Personally it doesn't bother me, the new adopted list could have been a far worse one in my eyes, and I think in the eyes of most birders. I think the most painful split is Desertas and Fea's Petrel to species, as people cannot say which they have seen. Ouch! My sympathies.
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1 year 7 months ago #1345 by Mike Prince
Replied by Mike Prince on topic IOC British list
As Andy mentioned, the underlying base list when taxonomic updates are processed will apply to all existing lists. This is the way it has always worked, e.g. when we update IOC or Clements you get prompted to review all existing lists you have using that taxonomy, whether a current life list or an old year list. Whilst we could consider doing something different in this case, it would be inconsistent and require development effort, for which we don't really have available time.

The new list doesn't come into effect until 2018, so we won't be making any changes until the end of this year.
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1 year 7 months ago #1346 by Jeremy Hurley
Replied by Jeremy Hurley on topic IOC British list
Thank you, Andy and Mike (you guys are doing a fine job by the way), for further clarification on this matter. I understand and appreciate some of the technical limitations and constraints of databases here on BuboListing. I was merely supporting, in my previous posting, the rationale that Elizabeth Watts expressed, from an academic standpoint.

Regards,

Jeremy Hurley.
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1 year 7 months ago #1347 by Elizabeth Watts
Replied by Elizabeth Watts on topic IOC British list
Of course I don't know exactly how it works, but according to what you have said, would this not be a possible solution?

You could perhaps leave BOU as an Authority that can be selected for year lists up to 2017, and leave it as it currently stands, making no future updates to the species on the List.

Since, to all intents and purposes, BOU will no longer exist as a separate Authority, you could then not include it as an option to choose for 2018 Year Lists and subsequent years; allow only IOC and UK400 as options to pick from. The current year lists would stay unaltered, but all new ones would be under the new rules.

Wouldn't that work, and require minimum or practically nil development time (just defining the accepted Authorities when you open the 2018 Year List category)?
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1 year 7 months ago #1348 by Andy Musgrove
Replied by Andy Musgrove on topic IOC British list
It could work, but I have to say I'm a little confused what the problem is here. Every year, BOURC has announced some changes and every year we've implemented them in BUBO. There's never been any suggestions that we should keep the BOU 2013, 2014, 2015, etc lists in perpetuity, for example.

Next year, there will still be a BOURC list. It will have some splits and lumps as usual, and the odd new species (e.g. presumably Siberian Accentor!) will have been added. We'll implement these changes too.

There will be no change over what's always happened. There will still be a BOURC list. The only difference is around the group of people whose advice BOURC follows on splits and lumps.

Sorry if I'm missing something.
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1 year 7 months ago #1353 by Lee Evans
Replied by Lee Evans on topic IOC British list
Andy, if you get a chance, the UK400 Club list requires updating. I believe I emailed you or Mike with the most recent December 2016 edition. Very best wishes, Lee
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1 year 7 months ago #1354 by Andy Musgrove
Replied by Andy Musgrove on topic IOC British list
Thanks Lee. Could you send again, I don't seem to have it. I'll try to get any updates sorted soon for you

Cheers

Andy
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8 months 3 weeks ago - 8 months 3 weeks ago #1460 by Steve Webb
Replied by Steve Webb on topic IOC British list
With the new BOU/IC list I see that some birders are ticking off birds that have not been accepted by the BOU as a particular species.

For example, Turkestan Shrike. As far I am aware BOU are at present only allowing adults e.g. 3rd June 2003, Porlock Marsh, Somerset, e.g. July 1998, Cemlyn Bay. First-winters at the moment are not accepted.

For example, Daurian Shrike. As far I am aware BOU are at present only allowing adults e.g. Nene Washes Sept 2000. First-winters at the moment are not accepted.

For example, Eastern Yellow Wagtail are only accepted on DNA or voice analysis. For example, Colyford, Devon, Dec 2010 on DNA.

For example, the only accepted Indigo Bunting on the BOU list is the Ramsey Island. The 1988 Norfolk bird was not accepted on to Category A.
Last edit: 8 months 3 weeks ago by Steve Webb.
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8 months 3 weeks ago #1463 by Jeremy Hurley
Replied by Jeremy Hurley on topic IOC British list
Since the inception of the newly adopted IOC taxonomy by the BOURC, there will be a number of pluses and minuses to sort with birders' personal lists and consciences.

With that issue in mind, I have reluctantly removed any representative of the formerly lumped Isabelline Shrike on my BOU list on the basis of the only two I have seen in Britain, i.e. two first-winter individuals encountered in my home county of Essex in October of 1988 and 2016, having not yet been attributed to contemporary species status.

Furthermore, with no other personal sightings of either Daurian or Turkestan Shrikes globally, a similarly applied discipline will impact as a "triple whammy", with commensurate removals on both my IOC and Clements world lists!

There appears to have been a ruthless revision by the BOURC of all previously accepted records by the British Birds Rarities Committee (BBRC) of both adult and first-winter individuals (even those trapped) that were considered to be either Daurian or Turkestan races at the time.

To date then, it appears the BOURC have not counted any "Isabelline Shrikes" to species level prior to 1995 and have cited just five accepted as Daurian and eight as Turkestan (A Checklist of Birds of Britain, 9th edition, Dec 2017).

It is hoped that, with the splitting of Isabelline Shrike, all previous records will be further scrutinised in an attempt to hone in to species status, although many may never be named with certainty. It is my own view, however, that the majority of first-winter "Isabelline Shrike" type individuals occurring in Britain are probably Daurian.
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8 months 3 weeks ago #1464 by Paul Chapman
Replied by Paul Chapman on topic IOC British list
Steve

You do realise that you have done exactly that with Siberian Stonechat and included an individual not accepted to species by BBRC/BOURC?

Personally, I'll clearly mark my list so it can be analysed if others wish and follow the BOU taxonomy on a BOU list but I'll follow my own judgement on the identification of individuals to species. I no longer hold the BBRC in the same esteem as I did (and have found a couple of their recent published statements to be odd). They could have been far more proactive in the last year between announcement and adoption.

I certainly would not criticise individuals for following their own judgements on non-assigned Stonechats and Isabelline Shrikes and indeed, I intend to resurrect my original Western Bocelli 's Warbler.

Interesting times.

All the best

Paul
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8 months 3 weeks ago #1465 by Steve Webb
Replied by Steve Webb on topic IOC British list
Hi Paul,

I made a mistake on the Siberian Stonechat so I have deleted it from the list. I will investigate which ones are acceptable.

Cheers
Steve
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8 months 3 weeks ago #1466 by Paul Chapman
Replied by Paul Chapman on topic IOC British list
Steve

For your information, the following ten are the accepted records:-

1913 - Fair Isle (maurus)
1985 - Porthgwarra (variegatus)
1993 - Landguard (variegatus)
2006 - Virtue (variegafus)
2013 - Agnes (variegatus)
2014 - Fair Isle (variegatus)
2015 - Orfordness (maurus)
2016 - Titchfield Haven (variegatus)
2016 - Fair Isle (maurus)
2016 - St Mary's (variegatus)

So I suspect that if you want to only tick accepted records to species, you should tick the St Agnes variegatus.

However, personally, I find c400 non-assigned Stonechats as vaguely farcical. Hence my personal position.

As you will imagine, I've spent some time staring at Stonechats and Isabelline Shrikes etc and pondering what I feel is right personally.

I suppose having got my head around others for years accepting seawatched Fea's/Zino's as Fea's, I got more relaxed over such things and as I say, I find the implementation of the changes as symptomatic of the divergence between taxonomists/the BBRC from birders/listers.

All the best

Paul
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