normal 'That' petrel

8 years 4 months ago #578 by Julian Thomas
'That' petrel was created by Julian Thomas
It's now over a year since the sighting of a Fregetta storm petrel at Severn Beach. The bird was only submitted as Fregetta sp, BBRC have accepted it as such, and BOURC have already said that it will not be accepted to species level. Is it not now time for 'Black-bellied Storm Petrel' to be removed as a pending species from both BOU and combined BOU/IRBC lists?

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8 years 4 months ago #579 by John Martin
Replied by John Martin on topic 'That' petrel
Hi Julian

You say 'BOURC have already said that it will not be accepted to species level' and I just wondered what the source was for this. I'm sure you are right that they won't, as we only submitted it as Fregetta sp., but your wording suggests there has been some kind of announcement from BOURC. If so I'd be interested to see it.

Personally I'd like to see the option to tick it as Fregetta sp., but BUBO doesn't usually do that. Neither does BBRC/BOURC usually consider either/or records, but they do for certain tricky taxa e.g. Fea's Petrel group, Bonelli's Warblers and if likely splits of the Madeiran/Band-rumped Petrels are adopted then that will probably be another example.

all the best

John

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8 years 4 months ago #580 by Julian Thomas
Replied by Julian Thomas on topic 'That' petrel
Hi John,
That's my understanding - I'll check to make sure that is accurate. It makes no odds, anyway - as you say you submitted it without claiming a specific identification and BBRC have accepted it on that basis.

I can't agree with the idea of superspecies being tickable - where would it end? Any personal list following the BOU list surely has to be based on species/indivduals accepted by that body, otherwise it loses any validity in terms of following that authority. The same goes for Fea's Petrel/presumed Fea's Petrel. (What people count personally is of course another matter.)

It was a great find, and the ultimate 'one that got away', but it cannot feature on a BOU list, and should be removed from the BOU-based lists on BUBO.

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7 years 6 months ago #721 by Chris Craig
Replied by Chris Craig on topic 'That' petrel
:( Well, sadly, 'that' petrel did only get accepted as Fregetta sp by the BBRC and BOURC (see BB this month) so I guess it needs to go from the BOU and BOU/IRBC lists. I say this with regret, given I saw it.

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7 years 6 months ago #722 by John Martin
Replied by John Martin on topic 'That' petrel
Hi Chris
Yes, though I am of course delighted both BBRC and BOURC have accepted it as Britain's first Fregetta sp. As Julian said in his first post, it's obviously not really tickable as Black-bellied. The situation is however not much different from most views of 'presumed Fea's', as I suggested in an earlier post (though I've yet to see one of those in Britain). I'd like the option of ticking it as Fregetta sp. but don't think BUBO can offer this so that's that. Pity as it's probably the most exciting bird I've ever seen in Britain!
Glad you saw it mate, but such a shame it didn't come back later for the masses (some of whom were armed with top camera gear...)
all the best
John

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7 years 6 months ago #723 by Andy Musgrove
Replied by Andy Musgrove on topic 'That' petrel
Yes, sounds like we've at least got a decision from BOU, which seems fair enough. So, to stick with current British listing norms, we'll have to knock it off. Sorry John.

John's point is a fair one though. I've personally got Fea's on my list which is technically a Fea's/Zino's. Moreover, once Fea's gets split again into Fea's and Desertas, everyone will be in the same boat. Moreover, the Madeiran SP record will shortly also become a superspecies presumably. Alder/Willow Flycatcher may be joining it too. And I often wonder how many people are completely certain they've seen Grey-cheeked Thrush and not Bicknell's?

There is no "official" ruling on whether aggregate taxa should be counted or not for a list total. That's because there the official BOU list is not concerning with the puerile sport of listing - that's just for us. BUBO Listing has tended to follow the traditional line in British birding that only a full species counts towards a total. But there's no reason why we couldn't change it so that aggregates like Black/White-bellied Storm-petrel could also count towards a total, if it was clear that there was a sufficient groundswell of opinion to do so. Does anybody think we should do this? (And might you change your mind if the Alder Fly becomes an Alder/Willow....?)

Andy

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7 years 6 months ago #724 by Julian Thomas
Replied by Julian Thomas on topic 'That' petrel
Hi Andy,
I'm afraid there's every reason not to include either/ors if you are putting forward a list as being a BOU list - the official British list does not include either/ors even though some individuals are accepted as such. There may be no official ruling, but the implication is pretty clear from a listing point of view - tick species, not superspecies (or subspecies). If you include superspecies then it would be OK if you describe the BUBO list in some other way and people can choose whether or not to follow the criteria you use, but it would immediately cease to have any legitimacy to be called a BOU list. The combined official British/Irish list would be similarly affected.

As you know, Fea's Petrel is on the BOU list because some individuals have been identified as such according to the current criteria, and technically speaking only those who have seen one accepted to species should have it on their BOU or BOU/IRBC lists. I did not tick it until the Scillonian pelagic bird was accepted, despite having seen a bird off Wexford that I submitted as a Fea's but which was only accepted as Fea's/Zino's. Mind you, given the likely developments that argument is likely, as you say, to become academic. If it happens no-one will be able to have any Fea's type or Madeiran type on their list based on field views alone if they follow official criteria. Personal lists will no doubt differ, but then we will not be comparing like with like, which is what I thought BUBO was supposed to be about.

Good birding

Julian

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7 years 6 months ago #725 by Andy Musgrove
Replied by Andy Musgrove on topic 'That' petrel
Thanks Julian - good point. I think you're right that the BOU list doesn't include superspecies, at least that in Dudley et al. (2006) Ibis, 148, 526–563.

Anyway, sorry to those few folks, but I have now removed Black-bellied Storm-petrel from BOU, B&I and UK400 lists.

Cheers

Andy

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7 years 5 months ago #730 by Chris Craig
Replied by Chris Craig on topic 'That' petrel
Andy

It is still acceptable as an either/or species on the UK400 list. See:-
www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/File-Store/UK4...ire_V9-2010-XXXX.xls

Cheers
Chris

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7 years 5 months ago #731 by Andy Musgrove
Replied by Andy Musgrove on topic 'That' petrel
Thanks Chris. Yeah, maybe. Not many folk seem to follow UK400 on BUBO, so given our limited spare time we tend to only worry about the BOU line really.

Cheers

Andy

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