Lady Amherst's Pheasant

One of the features of BUBO Listing is that we take a fairly "hands-off" approach to vetting people's lists. We prefer to trust people to be honest in saying what they've seen, and this seems to work well in general.

However, I can't help being a little bemused about the way that Lady Amherst's Pheasant is starting to appear on a few lists based on the escaped individual in Norfolk at present. Lady A used to be an established introduced species in Britain, but was found mostly in Bedfordshire and adjacent counties (and these birds are now all but extinct - perhaps entirely extinct?). Although it bred a couple of times in Norfolk in the early 70s, these birds failed to produce an established population. Since then, single birds are seen very occasionally, but at such a frequency as to show they are clearly individual escapes from collections, not part of an established wild population. Adding the current West Rudham bird to a life or year list is clearly not appropriate, unless you are in the habit of ticking any escaped bird you come across. If so, there are often a few Reeves' Pheasants at Buckenham/Strumpshaw you might want to go and look for too - spectacular birds but clearly not an established population.

Unless any Beds birders can say otherwise, it appears that Lady A is no longer available in Britain. Indeed, it is questionable whether those of us who saw them before they died out should retain them on our lists, as they clearly proved not to be a "self-sustaining population" in the long run.

Sorry!

Andy

Hi Andy

I did add it briefly to my list (presumably what you refer to in your comments) based on the West Rudham bird I saw yesterday, though I have now removed it after looking into it further and later today establishing that it has escaped from the keepers house. Birdguides did not initially put this bird out as an escape, although they subsequently have done. Its provenance has yesterday become clearer, as many suspected an escape.

I agree that it is barely tickable nowadays, having today read that there are just 3 males left from the introduced but established population of birds. Sadly clearly not self sustaining as there are no females left. I had not appreciated the full situation with these birds (or the lack of them).

Still nice to see though. I wonder how many have this ticked on their list when they have seen similar unringed but escaped birds. As you say, should they be on people's lists anyway as an introduced but evidently non-sustainable population?........its a difficult one, but perhaps this explains people's lack of strict ethics regards subsequent sightings of such birds where the species has been introduced but failed to sustain (I can think of no other comparable uk species), well at least in this case to a point where its origin was unproven.

Thanks Nick - I wasn't referring specifically to you - I'd just noticed a surprising amount of interest in it that's all. Certainly agree they're stunning to see!

There is no similar UK species yet, but it is conceivable that Golden Pheasant and Ruddy Duck, for different reasons, may present the same issue for new listers in the future.

Andy

Hi Andy
Ruddy Duck is not/will not be in the same category as the population clearly was established and self-sustaining until the government decided to get rid of them.
Cheers
Steve

Hi Steve - yes, good point of course - the reason behind it disappearing (if it does...) is different. It will still (potentially) become category C6 though

"C6 Former naturalized species – species formerly placed in C1 whose naturalized populations are either no longer self-sustaining or are considered extinct, e.g. Lady Amherst's Pheasant Chrysolophus amherstiae."

We'll see...

Andy

The argument in favour of ticking Lady A's, if you saw them long enough ago, would be that the population actually was sustaining itself (hence BOURC, not known for their impulsiveness, adding it to cat C) until some new factor started what looks like a terminal decline. They used to be in woods with a very thick ground cover of non-native shrubs such as Lonicera nitida, if I remember rightly from the 1980s. Might changes in woodland management have caused their decline? Does anyone out there know? - I'm sure locals will have some ideas about what happened and I'd be interested to hear about it.

Good point John. I guess a major candidate for a change in woodland structure would be the increase in deer density - Roe, Muntjac and Fallow in these woods I guess. We're pretty sure that deer densities are strongly implicated in Nightingale declines (amongst others). Ironic I suppose if the demise in one non-native was due to another - Muntjac chomping Lady A habitat.

A further problem with the "Lady A" at West Rudham was that it looked likely to be a hybrid. Red patches on the breast indicate some Golden genes making it a "Goldherst". We had a similar bird on Bringsty Common in Herefordshire recently, another wall jumper. :silly:

As an aside how many people are counting the White-tailed Eagle releases on the east coast of Scotland, the tagged Great Bustards or countless dodgy wildfowl?

Last winter we had a small Canada Goose (probably Taverner's) along the Wye initially in Herefordshire and later Breconshire, among 250 Canadas. Not inconceivable that it was a genuine transatlantic flyer, and indeed if one arrived in Wales what would be the most likely species it would associate with - Canada Goose. But it will never have a chance of getting through as a accepted vagrant, wrong place and wrong company. I wonder how the Ross's Geese will fair?

Also, an increase in golf course was presumably a major factor in the Brickhill birds' demise

Andy

Presumably the Lady A's which were formerly at Pentre Halkyn Cemetery in North Wales fall into the same category as the Brickhill population. Any idea how many years ago the PH birds were last seen ?

Tony

I recall seeing a brood of small young and, also a nest with eggs, in the cemetery at Halkyn in summer 1980. I last saw them there (6) in 1988, though even then they might have been recently reintroduced(?). Those birds were always considered distinctly more dodgy than the Beds ones and were perhaps never self sustaining. Not sure when they were last seen but found a bird forum thread from 2005 asking the same question.

Have just checked in the BTO library. There is a Clwyd bird report for 1993-95 which lists Lady A for Halkyn for 1994. We then don't have any reports until 2000 (not sure if any exist?), by which time it seems to have disappeared.

Andy

I remember a fair few people used to twitch and tick these birds in the early 90's. I tried on several occations but never connected! It was always thought these birds were released from the large estate that the cemy backed onto, with warnings not to tresspass on their property, although i heard reports of the Pheasants wandering around on the lawns!

The last time i remember one reported was around 1995 (or maybe 96') when a male was reported together with a Golden Pheasant!!! With that news i decided to give up on them and eventually saw one in Charle Wood, Bedfordshire.

From what i know they were never self sustaining and most birders knew this but opted for the "lazy tick"?

Cheers Ian.

Understood. Removed.

Of interest, the latest British Birds includes the report on non-native breeding birds in the UK in 2006, 2007, 2008. They're clearly hanging on still (or were in 2008) in Bedfordshire:

2006 - six males at three Beds sites
2007 - seven males at three Beds sites but no females seen
2008 - five males at three Beds sites

Cheers

Andy

Know this was a few months ago but it reminded me of the situation in north America with birds like crested mynas which are now extirpated. I had quite a few discussions with my birding friends when I lived just south of Vancouver in the US about the fact it was taken off the checklist and how they wanted to keep it on theirs as they had seen them etc etc. I understand their point as they were established for a long time, is it any different than if say, collared dove or little egret were extirpated here? Should it be down to a minimum time? (apart from the whole natural/introduced thing).

I guess, as always, it is up to the individual.

The one I always struggle with is waterfowl, if some are OK, how do you tell the difference between them and the plastics......

Hi,

Resurrecting an old topic here, but I saw a Lady Amherst last week.
I was in ******, in Bedfordshire, on a photo shoot and wandered into the woods for a pee. This very distinctive bird came out for the bushes and legged it away from me.
I didn't know what is was until I did a bit of research, but it was definitely a Lady Amherst

So the breed appears to be still hanging on in there!

Ben Millar wrote:

Hi,

Resurrecting an old topic here, but I saw a Lady Amherst last week.
I was in ******, in Bedfordshire, on a photo shoot and wandered into the woods for a pee. This very distinctive bird came out for the bushes and legged it away from me.
I didn't know what is was until I did a bit of research, but it was definitely a Lady Amherst

So the breed appears to be still hanging on in there!

Ah. Right. So this explains why I've received a couple of phone calls in the last week asking me where the Lady A's were...

I've never been aware of any other Ben Miller/Millars on the UK birding scene before, so to clarify any potential confusion, this Ben Miller has no idea how to see Lady A's in the UK at the moment.

In fact, I've not seen one in Britain since the 20th March 1999 in Lowe's Wood on the Bucks/Bed border, with a number of others including LGRE and Rich Bonser. The last Bucks record I know of was a calling male I heard with Simon Nichols et al on the 1st of May 2005 at Back Wood near Bow Brickhill.

So, sorry, can't help anyone!

Cheers,

Ben Miller,
Bucks Tring, UK
@Bob_Tag

Ben Miller wrote:

Ben Millar wrote:

Hi,

Resurrecting an old topic here, but I saw a Lady Amherst last week.
I was in ******, in Bedfordshire, on a photo shoot and wandered into the woods for a pee. This very distinctive bird came out for the bushes and legged it away from me.
I didn't know what is was until I did a bit of research, but it was definitely a Lady Amherst

So the breed appears to be still hanging on in there!

Ah. Right. So this explains why I've received a couple of phone calls in the last week asking me where the Lady A's were...

I've never been aware of any other Ben Miller/Millars on the UK birding scene before, so to clarify any potential confusion, this Ben Miller has no idea how to see Lady A's in the UK at the moment.

In fact, I've not seen one in Britain since the 20th March 1999 in Lowe's Wood on the Bucks/Bed border, with a number of others including LGRE and Rich Bonser. The last Bucks record I know of was a calling male I heard with Simon Nichols et al on the 1st of May 2005 at Back Wood near Bow Brickhill.

So, sorry, can't help anyone!

Cheers,

Ben Miller,
Bucks Tring, UK
@Bob_Tag

Hi, wasn't aware the location of the birds should be kept under wraps :blush: They are certainly safe, it's not a place the public can go.

I'm not a member of the birding scene, I just joined as I saw the pheasant and this seemed the place to report it.
Funny fact for my namesake Ben Miller - I grew up in Tring!!

Ben Millar wrote:

Funny fact for my namesake Ben Miller - I grew up in Tring!!

What a coincidence.

I don't recall any namesakes! When were you in Tring? Which school did you go to?

Cheers,

Ben

Ben Miller wrote:

Ben Millar wrote:

Funny fact for my namesake Ben Miller - I grew up in Tring!!

What a coincidence.

I don't recall any namesakes! When were you in Tring? Which school did you go to?

Cheers,

Ben

I was in Tring from birth in 1976 up until I left Tring school at 18.
My folks still live there, and we often go back.

What is the current situation regarding listing these birds now as I see that LGRE has added one to his British year list this year.

John

Not sure of your interest John but as 4 males currently survive from at least 1999 and are clearly part of the once well-established Bedfordshire population, I don't understand the nature of your question. The birds remain an integral part of the UK list until the very last individual expires. I still run trips to see these last surviving individuals but costs are high and it is extremely difficult keeping birds at feeding stations with so many Common Pheasants, Muntjacs, Magpies and other creatures in competition. Also, due to continued trespassing at the main site and the breaking down of fences, security has been reinforced and General Motors are taking firm action against those birders we know are gaining access (the area is on CCTV and I can identify most individuals breaching the security fence; typically 2 individuals involved with Bird Dissemination are involved and others from Cheshire/Staffordshire). A number of visiting twitchers have been caught red-handed scaling the fence in the early hours and this really has not gone down very well and because of this, the future of at least two birds is now of very grave concern as GM take a very dim view of these actions and breaches of security, particularly as a number of motor manufacturer's utilise the site to test prototype vehicles.

Outside of Bedfordshire, a further 5-12 males of captive origin survive in the wild but were NOT part of the original introduction and stock. These are therefore not considered countable.

Hi Lee

You know my interest as you can see that I am currently second on the list. This is the first time I have joined the list and I have done it because there appear to be rules regarding what you can or cannot list (i.e BOU rules).

Now using those rules this is what BOU says about Lady A's qualification.

C6 - Former naturalized species – species formerly placed in C1 whose naturalized populations are either no longer self-sustaining or are considered extinct, e.g. Lady Amherst's Pheasant Chrysolophus amherstiae.

Now using that statement how can you list Lady A as part of the BOU rules.

Whilst we are on the subject. How can you also count the Radipole Hooded Merganser which has been rejected by BOU.

You count what you like with your UK400 club but surely within the restraints of the BOU rules you should comply with them and take off both Lady A & Hooded Merganser from your list.

You may think I have a vested interest in you taking off two species so that I can get closer on the list but you have no fear of me catching you up as I work in the week so will always miss loads of species. My only target this year (which will be my last twitching year) is to reach 300 but I will do it totally under the BOU rules, which I hope you will do also.

John

I have had this conversation with some members of the BOURC and they seem to understand (like me) that Lady A in Bedfordshire is COUNTABLE until the last remaining individual of the post 1966 stock dies out. This seems logical and sensible but I do agree that Lady A is finished, after all I haven't seen a female since Year 2000.

There are countless lists on BUBO BOU admitting the Radipole Hooded Merganser to their lists and hence why I added it. However, as you will see from my UK400 Club list also on BUBO, that I don't count it and it is not (currently) countable. However, I personally feel that this bird is a natural vagrant rather than an escapee and NOBODY knows its merits other than itself. It turned up the very morning after a bird in exactly the same plumage was last seen on The Azores - relocating bird perhaps. Portland has proven its ability to receive far-flung vagrants from elsewhere in Europe next day (eg last year's Stejgener's Stonechat)

And you may be well out with your assumptions. Spending nearly 6 months of the year tour leading and guiding around the globe, YOU are in a better position than me to chase UK rares, even if you can only travel at weekends - nobody has more commitments or is busier than me. Remember I have a wife and 4 cats to fulfil, numerous businesses to run and countless birders to answer and help

Like you Lee I also feel that the Radipole bird is genuine but as of yet BOU haven't accepted it and until they do I won't count it. Likewise the L.A as a catergory 6 shouldn't be tickable either.

Whether you think it is right or wrong has no bearing on this isue as we still should abide by the rules as they stand and then complain with a good case why the other two species should be asccepted onto the lists.

If after that they change their stance on these birds then count them but if not you shouldn't consider them on the BOU list.

John

The official British list is made up of both Category A, B and Category C species. As Lady Amherst's Pheasant is in Category C (the number is merely a sub-division), then any left in the wild from their naturalised population are still part of the British list and therefore countable. Lee even says that he has spoken to BOURC members who confirm that this is the case.

To be clear I haven't seen Lady A's in Britain, nor am I likely to now, so I don't have a vested interest in their tickability, I just don't understand why you don't think that you can count a C6 species.

Regards,
James

Hi James

Thanks for the clarification regarding Lady A's. I was always under the impression (wrongly by the look of it) that once a species was declared non sustainable that it was no longer tickable. It looks like I now stand corrected.

Regarding the Hooded Merganser at Radipole. How is that bird tickable when it has not been accepted by the BOU.

John

Hi John.

I can understand why that would seem to be the case. You could quite reasonably claim that as Lady A's Pheasants are now going extinct, that the population was never self-sustaining. However, as the decline was at least partly down to human interference, I think the general line is that the population was self-sustainable for a reasonable period, which justifies their position on Category C. With regards to ticking them, the key part on the BOU website is that the birds that are left are derived from a self-sustaining population, so they are OK. The only other option would be for BOURC to decide that the population was never self-sustaining, at which point it would have to be removed from Category C and moved to Category E. To put it another way, if a 15th generation born-in-the-wild pheasant was OK to tick twenty years ago, why wouldn't a 25th generation born-in-the-wild pheasant be tickable now? (obviously I have made up the number of generations, but I think it illustrates the point).

I agree with you that if you are keeping a strict BOU list (i.e. using BOU taxonomy and decisions) then you shouldn't count the Radipole Merganser as it was rejected by BBRC.

Many people keep a not-so-strict BOU list, using the taxonomy but counting birds that they feel were identified correctly/were wild, but were rejected. The problem here is that if some people put on a strict list and some don't then it makes comparison less valid.

All the best,
James

John Jennings wrote:

Hi James

Thanks for the clarification regarding Lady A's. I was always under the impression (wrongly by the look of it) that once a species was declared non sustainable that it was no longer tickable. It looks like I now stand corrected.

Regarding the Hooded Merganser at Radipole. How is that bird tickable when it has not been accepted by the BOU.

John

Thanks James

I can see why there is confusion regarding the Lady A's but not the Merganser.

I spoke to Lee about the Merganser at the Dusky Thrush site but he just seemed to pass it over.

As far as I am concerned this year list is using BOU rules and while I now accept the lady A argument I can't accept the Merganser one and this bird (although like quite a few other birders I suspect that this is an acceptable one) should not be ticked by anyone, including those birders whose only excuse is, "well Lee has ticked it so I will".

It doesn't say much for their own minds when they can't make a judgement based on the rules we appear to be working to.

I have seen the Merganser but I am not ticking it, not on my life list or my year list, until it has been accepted by the BOU (which I feel will never happen).

Regards
John